Journals of the Senate
54 Elizabeth II, A.D. 2005, Canada
Journals of the Senate
1st Session, 38th Parliament
Issue 85
Wednesday, July 20, 2005
1:30 p.m.
The Honourable Daniel Hays, Speaker
The Members convened were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Biron, Bryden, Callbeck, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Dallaire, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Downe, Dyck, Eggleton, Eyton, Fairbairn, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Furey, Gill, Grafstein, Harb, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, Jaffer, Joyal, Kelleher, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Lapointe, Lavigne, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mahovlich, Massicotte, Meighen, Mercer, Merchant, Milne, Mitchell, Moore, Munson, Murray, Nancy Ruth, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Peterson, Phalen, Pitfield, Plamondon, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Robichaud, Rompkey, St. Germain, Sibbeston, Smith, Spivak, Stratton, Tardif, Tkachuk, Trenholme Counsell, Watt
The Members in attendance to business were:
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Angus, Atkins, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Biron, Bryden, Callbeck, Chaput, Christensen, Cochrane, Comeau, Cook, Cools, Corbin, Cordy, Dallaire, De Bané, Di Nino, Doody, Downe, Dyck, Eggleton, Eyton, Fairbairn, Fitzpatrick, Forrestall, Furey, Gill, Grafstein, Harb, Hays, Hervieux-Payette, *Hubley, Jaffer, Joyal, Kelleher, Kenny, Keon, Kinsella, Lapointe, Lavigne, LeBreton, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mahovlich, Massicotte, Meighen, Mercer, Merchant, Milne, Mitchell, Moore, Munson, Murray, Nancy Ruth, Oliver, Pearson, Pépin, Peterson, Phalen, Pitfield, Plamondon, Poulin (Charette), Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Robichaud, Rompkey, St. Germain, Sibbeston, Smith, Spivak, *Stollery, Stratton, Tardif, Tkachuk, Trenholme Counsell, Watt
PRAYERS
SENATORS' STATEMENTS
Some honourable senators made statements.
DAILY ROUTINE OF BUSINESS
Tabling of Documents
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Hays tabled the following:
Report of the Senate delegation, led by the Speaker of the Senate, which traveled to the People's Republic of China from June 6 to 10, 2005, on the invitation of the Chair of the National People's Congress of the People's Republic of China.—Sessional Paper No. 1/38-645S.
Presentation of Reports from Standing or Special Committees
The Honourable Senator Furey presented the following:
Wednesday, July 20, 2005
The Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration has the honour to present its
ELEVENTH REPORT
Your Committee recommends that the following funds be released for fiscal year 2005-2006 and that the Standing Senate Committee on National Finance be empowered to travel to the United Kingdom and Scotland for the purpose of its study of the Estimates:
National Finance (Legislation)
Professional and Other Services $ 18,700 Transportation and Communications 71,855 Other Expenditures 4,850 Total $ 95,405 (includes funds for fact-finding mission)
Respectfully submitted,
GEORGE J. FUREY
Chair
Ordered, That the report be placed on the Orders of the Day for consideration later this day.
Government Notices of Motions
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool:
That notwithstanding the Order of the Senate of November 2, 2004, when the Senate sits today, Wednesday, July 20, 2005, it continue its proceedings beyond 4 pm and follow the normal adjournment procedure according to Rule 6(1).
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Introduction and First Reading of Senate Public Bills
The Honourable Senator Grafstein presented a Bill S-42, An Act to amend the Food and Drugs Act (clean drinking water).
The bill was read the first time.
The Honourable Senator Grafstein moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Fitzpatrick, that the bill be placed on the Orders of the Day for a second reading two days hence.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Presentation of Petitions
The Honourable Senator St. Germain, P.C., presented petitions:
Of Residents of the province of Ontario concerning marriage.
ORDERS OF THE DAY
GOVERNMENT BUSINESS
Bills
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, for the third reading of Bill C-23, An Act to establish the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development and to amend and repeal certain related Acts.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The bill was then read the third time and passed.
Ordered, That a message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate has passed this bill, without amendment.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool, for the third reading of Bill C-22, An Act to establish the Department of Social Development and to amend and repeal certain related Acts.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
The bill was then read the third time and passed.
Ordered, That a message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate has passed this bill, without amendment.
Resuming debate on the motion of the Honourable Senator Eggleton, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Jaffer, for the third reading of Bill C-48, An Act to authorize the Minister of Finance to make certain payments.
After debate,
In amendment, the Honourable Senator Kinsella moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Comeau, that Bill C- 48 be not now read a third time but that it be amended in clause 2, by replacing lines 29 to 32 on page 1, with the following:
"(a) an amount not exceeding $900 million, for the environment, including
(i) a sum of six hundred and fifty million dollars for public transit and for an energy-efficient retrofit program for low-income housing, and
(ii) a sum of two hundred and fifty million dollars for the purpose of providing funding towards the refurbishment of the Point Lepreau nuclear generating station.''.
After debate,
The question being put on the motion in amendment, it was negatived on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Atkins, Cochrane, Comeau, Cools, Di Nino, Forrestall, Keon, Kinsella, LeBreton, Meighen, Murray, Nancy Ruth, Oliver, Prud'homme, St. Germain, Stratton, Tkachuk—17
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Biron, Bryden, Callbeck, Chaput, Christensen, Cook, Corbin, Cordy, Dallaire, De Bané, Downe, Dyck, Eggleton, Fairbairn, Fitzpatrick, Furey, Grafstein, Harb, Jaffer, Lapointe, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mahovlich, Massicotte, Mercer, Merchant, Milne, Mitchell, Moore, Munson, Pearson, Peterson, Phalen, Pitfield, Plamondon, Poulin, Poy, Ringuette, Rompkey, Sibbeston, Smith, Tardif, Trenholme Counsell, Watt—49
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Spivak—1
The question then being put on the motion of the Honourable Senator Eggleton, P.C., seconded by the Honourable Senator Jaffer, for the third reading of Bill C-48, An Act to authorize the Minister of Finance to make certain payments, it was adopted on the following vote:
YEAS
The Honourable Senators
Adams, Austin, Bacon, Baker, Banks, Biron, Bryden, Callbeck, Chaput, Christensen, Cook, Corbin, Cordy, Dallaire, De Bané, Downe, Eggleton, Fairbairn, Fitzpatrick, Furey, Grafstein, Harb, Jaffer, Lapointe, Losier-Cool, Maheu, Mahovlich, Massicotte, Mercer, Merchant, Milne, Mitchell, Moore, Munson, Pearson, Peterson, Phalen, Pitfield, Plamondon, Poulin, Poy, Prud'homme, Ringuette, Rompkey, Sibbeston, Smith, Spivak, Tardif, Trenholme Counsell, Watt—50
NAYS
The Honourable Senators
Atkins, Cochrane, Comeau, Cools, Di Nino, Forrestall, Keon, Kinsella, LeBreton, Meighen, Murray, Nancy Ruth, Oliver, St. Germain, Stratton, Tkachuk—16
ABSTENTIONS
The Honourable Senators
Dyck—1
Accordingly, Bill C-48 was then read the third time and passed.
Ordered, That a message be sent to the House of Commons to acquaint that House that the Senate has passed this bill, without amendment.
The Honourable Senator Austin, P.C., tabled the following:
A letter to the Prime Minister of Canada from Jack Layton, M.P., concerning the Point Lepreau Nuclear Power plant (English text). —Sessional Paper No. 1/38-646S.
OTHER BUSINESS
Senate Public Bills
Orders No. 1 to 10 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Ordered, That notwithstanding rule 27(3), Order No. 11 (Bill S-20) remain on the Order Paper for another fifteen consecutive sitting days.
Order No. 12 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Commons Public Bills
Order No. 1 was called and postponed until the next sitting.
Reports of Committees
Resuming debate on the consideration of the twelfth report of the Standing Senate Committee on National Security and Defence, entitled: Borderline Insecure, tabled in the Senate on June 14, 2005.
After debate,
The Honourable Senator Kenny moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Furey, that further debate on the consideration of the report be adjourned until the next sitting.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Orders No. 2 and 3 were called and postponed until the next sitting.
Consideration of the eleventh report of the Standing Committee on Internal Economy, Budgets and Administration (budget of the National Finance Committee—legislation), presented in the Senate on July 20, 2005.
The Honourable Senator Furey moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Moore, that the report be adopted.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
Other
Orders No. 127 (motion), 24 (inquiry), 120 (motion), 18 (inquiry), 113 (motion), 6, 23, 2, 25, 17, 26, 11, 15 (inquiries), 91 (motion), 4, 21, 22 (inquiries), 78 (motion), 14, 20 (inquiries) and 69 (motion) were called and postponed until the next sitting.
MOTIONS
The Honourable Senator LeBreton, for the Honourable Senator Andreychuk, moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Prud'homme, P.C.:
That, pursuant to rule 95(3)(a), the Standing Senate Committee on Human Rights be authorized to meet on Monday, September 19, 2005, Monday, September 26, 2005 and Monday, October 3, 2005, even though the Senate may then be adjourned for a period exceeding one week.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
SPEAKER'S RULING
Yesterday, during debate on third reading of Bill C-38, a point of order was raised by Senator Corbin, who objected to the practice of using lists as a guide for the Speaker to recognize Senators who have indicated an interest in participating in debate. The Senator made reference to several rules of the Senate which make it clear what Senators must do when they wish to speak in debate. Senator Cools also joined in on the point of order. In her view, the use of lists is "one of those creeping practices in this place that have the effect of eroding the individual rights of Senators.'' Following these brief interventions, I suggested that I would look into the matter and report back to the Chamber with a ruling.
Having reviewed some parliamentary authorities and considered the merits of the point of order, I would like to explain to the Senate the purpose of using these lists, which are supplied to me by the leadership of both sides, the Government and the Opposition. There is nothing really new in using such lists. It is part of the established, albeit informal, practice of facilitating the conduct of business. There is also nothing binding about these lists. They serve simply as an aid to help me as Speaker to be aware of who in the Senate has expressed an intention to speak in a debate. In practice, these lists are flexible and discretionary. Their purpose is to assist the flow of proceedings without depriving any Senator of the right to join in debate.
The use of such lists is not unique to the Senate. Speakers' lists are used elsewhere. At page 505 of Marleau and Montpetit, there is a statement confirming the use of lists in the other place. This recently published authority states that, "Although the Whips of the various parties each provide the Chair with a list of Members wishing to speak, these lists are used as a guide.'' References in the 23rd edition of Erskine May at pages 428 and 521 make it clear lists are used to assist in the arrangement of debate in both the Lords and the Commons. In fact, in the United Kingdom House of Commons, one acknowledged benefit of the use of lists, in accordance with the practices followed there, is to allow the Speaker "a means of distributing the available time as equitably as possible between the various sections of opinion...'' Honourable Senators will be aware that I do this frequently myself with respect to Question Period, when I advise the House of the number of Senators who have indicated a desire to ask a question when only a few minutes remain in the time allotted to this proceeding.
With respect to an issue raised by Senator Corbin, the use of speakers' lists is not contrary to the Rules of the Senate — specifically those rules mentioned by the Senator that stipulate how a Senator is to seek recognition in debate. It must be noted that some Senators do not at times seem to know where they fall in the order of speaking, and so have not always been recognized if other Senators stand to participate in the debate.
Let me repeat, Honourable Senators, these lists are informal aids that are intended to facilitate the conduct of business. They are not solicited by me as the Speaker. They are provided voluntarily by those responsible for House business and, sometimes, independent Senators. These lists are not binding nor do they in anyway limit the rights of any Senator to participate in debate. That this is so was evident even as we proceeded to debate Bill C-38, following the point of order. I had already mentioned the sequence that I had cited based on a list given to me and that was immediately adjusted to accommodate an intervention from another Senator.
Whether a parliamentary chamber has 700, 300 or, like ours, just 100 members, speakers' lists are useful. They are neither rigid nor binding, but flexible and discretionary. These lists do nothing to adversely impact the rights or opportunities of any Senator to engage in debate.
If there is any limitation, it may be that the lists emanating from the Government and Opposition Leadership do not take into account the independent Senators, of which there are now eleven. While the use of the lists does not keep the independent Senators from speaking in debate, their contribution to the composition of the list might reinforce the idea of balance and completeness. This is a matter, I suggest, that might be reviewed at some point by the Speaker's Advisory Committee. Whatever is done, I will continue to exercise vigilance in recognizing Senators rising in their places whether or not they have previously indicated their intention to speak. As we saw last evening, Senators are often prompted to participate as they become engaged in the exchanges of a healthy and vigorous debate which often occurs in this Chamber.
Honourable Senators, for the reasons that I have explained, I rule that there is no point of order in this case.
Ordered, That the Senate do now adjourn at pleasure to reassemble at the call of the chair and that the bells ring for five minutes.
(Accordingly, at 5:30 p.m. the sitting was adjourned during pleasure.)
At 6:09 p.m. the sitting resumed.
WRITTEN DECLARATION OF ROYAL ASSENT
At 6:09 p.m. the Honourable the Speaker informed the Senate that the following communication had been received:
RIDEAU HALL
July 20, 2005
Mr. Speaker:
I have the honour to inform you that The Right Honourable Beverley McLachlin, Chief Justice of the Supreme Court of Canada, signified royal assent by written declaration to the bills listed in the Schedule to this letter on the 20th day of July, 2005, at 4:56 p.m.
Yours sincerely,
Barbara Uteck
Secretary to the Governor General
The Honourable
The Speaker of the Senate
Ottawa
Schedule
Bills Assented To
Wednesday, July 20, 2005
An Act to amend the Criminal Code (protection of children and other vulnerable persons) and the Canada Evidence Act (Bill C-2, Chapter 32, 2005)
An Act respecting certain aspects of legal capacity for marriage for civil purposes (Bill C-38, Chapter 33, 2005)
An Act to establish the Department of Human Resources and Skills Development and to amend and repeal certain related Acts (Bill C-23, Chapter 34, 2005)
An Act to establish the Department of Social Development and to amend and repeal certain related Acts (Bill C-22, Chapter 35, 2005)
At 6:11 p.m. the Honourable the Speaker informed the Senate that the following communication had been received:
RIDEAU HALL
July 20, 2005
Mr. Speaker:
I have the honour to inform you that the Honourable Morris Fish, Judge of the Supreme Court of Canada, signified royal assent by written declaration to the bill listed in the Schedule to this letter on the 20th day of July, 2005, at 5:42 p.m.
Yours sincerely,
Barbara Uteck
Secretary to the Governor General
The Honourable
The Speaker of the Senate
Ottawa
Schedule
Bill Assented To
Wednesday, July 20, 2005
An Act to authorize the Minister of Finance to make certain payments (Bill C-48, Chapter 36, 2005)
With leave,
The Senate reverted to Government Notices of Motions.
With leave of the Senate,
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool:
That when the Senate adjourns today, it do stand adjourned until Tuesday, September 27, 2005 at 2 p.m.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
ADJOURNMENT
The Honourable Senator Rompkey, P.C., moved, seconded by the Honourable Senator Losier-Cool:
That the Senate do now adjourn.
The question being put on the motion, it was adopted.
(Accordingly, at 6:17 p.m. the Senate was continued until Tuesday, September 27, 2005 at 2 p.m.)